To Trollope-l

November 16, 1998

Re: The Belton Estate, Chs 1-6: Somber Opening

I am liking this book too :). Looking down my list of messages arrived I see one about Felix Holt and hope to respond this evening or sometime tomorrow. Right now what I will say in favor of Trollope is that while when I began Felix Holt I found myself admiring George Eliot in comparison with Trollope, when I had gotten into the story, I found myself preferring Trollope because he made the story emerge out of the inner psychology of the characters while she seemed to develop hers out of external circumstances leaving the psychological portraiture as icing on the cake, a fascinating deep series of passages, but not something that set the plot rolling. In Rachel Ray, Lady Anna (which I am reading just now too), and _Belton Estate_ one does not rely on complicated external circumstances to thrust us forward.

In sum, things begin pretty badly. The remnants of the Amedroz family consist of a daughter and father. The son, Charles, in part taking after his father, was worse than a useless drone; he lived extravagantly a debauched life, exhausted the revenue of the estates and forced the sale of whatever was incoming producing, and then when cornered because he had yet more enormous debts, committed suicide. The story is not his, but it's his character which begins it -- his and his father's, another of these older male aristocrats who Trollope presents as cold, selfish men who ruin their children's lives (examples include George Bertram's father, Captain Marrable, Mr Maule, Mr Vavasour). When we meet him though he is shattered, feeble, nervous, and his relationship with Clara, his impoverished daughter, recalls Thady's with his enervated father, Nina Balatka with hers. Another portrait of Mr Trollope and son is what we are given.

Clara though is the story. The inference from the very beginning is she is forced into the position of an encumbrance most unfairly. One feels she could do so much, if only there were something given her to do. She is intelligent, strong, capable. And here she is waiting for some man to take her. Mrs Winterfield is another rigid religious woman (recalling Mrs Prime, the mother in John Caldigate) who is unfairly leaving her property to a man who doesn't need it, Captain Aylmer. I don't agree with the introduction by John Halperin which suggests that Clara fell in love with Aylmer because other people admired him; I see in Trollope's portrait of Clara's love an insistence on the irrational and sexual element in love.

Who could resist Will Belton? He's wonderful. The portrait demonstates how Trollope can identify with the non-intellectual. Will is all integrity, humanity, good-heartedness, sincerity, perception, everything but sex appeal. Sex appeal appears to be related to enigmas in the man, withdrawnness, a challenge (at least in this novel). Will is none of these. He has not a shred of pretension. The gift of the cow is perfect.

I found the theme of cousins well done -- ironically portrayed as Clara's assumption that because Will is her cousin she must be safe. In fact, middle class young people in the country married their cousins because they married whom they met (one sees this in the Austens).

Mrs Askerton is another of these women with a sexual past which is not limited to one man. Interesting that Trollope does give her a tone which makes her teasing unpleasant. Trollope does adhere in Clara's story to the notion that virgins instinctively say no first when asked (this seems to be a male idea in 18th-19th century novels). With Mrs Askerton he suggests an unchaste past makes a woman an uncomfortable creature in and of herself, never mind how she is ostracised by others.

What else? I liked the description of Somerset. Trollope has more gifts for landscape description than he's given credit for. He has a wonderful ear for what people can be supposed really to say to one another.

I can see how the novels must have connected in Trollope's mind: they are both love stories set in the provincial worlds of western England. They are both stories about money and property. Here I think it is not the community which fascinates Trollope but rather the inner life of the heroine.

Ellen Moody

To Trollope-l

Subject: TROL Déjà Vue
Sender: owner-trollope-l@smtp.teleport.com

November 16, 1998

Here we are at the beginning of The Belton Estate, and it seems very familiar. Again we have a decrepit house, an ineffectual house owner, his doomed son, and his nubile daughter. We've seen it before with the MacDermot family.

But things here are different. Although the son is fated for destruction, his demise does not come as a result of rebellion against the Crown. The daughter is wiser than Feemy. The family here is safe within the Established Church. And a rollicking deus ex machina appears, not at the end of the story but at the very beginning. Furthermore, The Belton Estate has a mystery woman, Mrs. Askerson. Yes, it's a different novel with a subplot that makes it more sophisticated than the adventures of the family at Ballycloran. We'll see what happens next, although I think most new readers of this novel (which I am not) will pretty well guess how things will turn out.

Re: The Belton Estate: Will as Deus Ex Machina

I agree with Sig that anyone who has read previous books by Trollope will recognize a number of paradigms at this novel's openings. Henry James's main complaint about the book was it was "deja vu all over again" (to quote the famous baseball player).

Yet at the same time there's a sophisticated undercurrent about sex which relates to the Askertons. I also think the atmosphere is unique to the novel; each novel by Trollope seems to have its own peculiar tone and imagery. Here's its southwest England, Somerset, and the tone is strongly emotional, an aspect of Will's frankness, and the directness of Clara's approach to life.

I did like Sig's likening Will to a Deus Ex Machina. What that brings out is the story could have ended more or less happily in Chapter 4. Clara brings her troubles on herself by refusing Will; the two Amedroz males obviously have made a mess of their lives. This theme of taking responsibility for one's actions even if one is not in full control of one's consciousness seems to be strong in the book; those who don't take responsibility, end up dead or maimed.

Ellen Moody

To: Ellen Moody
Subject: Re: TROL The Belton Estate, Chs 1-6: Somber Opening

Ellen Moody wrote:

" Right now what I will say in favor of Trollope is that while when I began Felix Holt I found myself admiring George Eliot in comparison with Trollope, when I had gotten into the story, I found myself preferring Trollope..."

I felt the same way in the beginning, Ellen. I am still juggling both books (and trying not to confuse characters...), and am now preferring Belton Estate, whereas I had first preferred Felix Holt. Eliot seems to have drawn me in better at the beginning, and I can't quite put my finger on the reason for that. Your point about internal/external circumstances is an interesting one, and could perhaps be the underlying reason for my own preference.

On a different thread, I find it interesting that both books portray main female characters who are motherless. Both women seem quite strong and capable, while, at the same time, encumbered by their social status/lack of money. I'll be interested to see the further differences between the two as I read.

"Clara though is the story. The inference from the very beginning is she is forced into the position of an encumbrance most unfairly. One feels she could do so much, if only there were something given her to do. She is intelligent, strong, capable. And here she is waiting for some man to take her."

This is an aggravating point, and another which seems to be prevalent in 19th-C novels. The women are only as good as the men they catch, apparently, which is a little hard to swallow from a modern point of view.

"Mrs Winterfield is another rigid religious woman (recalling Mrs Prime, the mother in John Caldigate) who is unfairly leaving her property to a man who doesn't need it, Captain Aylmer."

She does make the allowance for 1,500/year, but leaves that unfinished before her death. It was implied that Captain Aylmer would carry through with the promise, but, of course, Clara was too proud to accept it.

"I don't agree with the introduction by John Halperin which suggests that Clara fell in love with Aylmer because other people admired him; I see in Trollope's portrait of Clara's love an insistence on the irrational and sexual element in love."

I agree. I believe Clara's love for Aylmer was her own, and not caused by anyone else's opinion of him. That's how it seems to me, so far.

"Who could resist Will Belton? He's wonderful. The portrait demonstates how Trollope can identify with the non-intellectual. Will is all integrity, humanity, good-heartedness, sincerity, perception, everything but sex appeal."

Ah, yes! Poor Will! I liked him from the start and was rooting for Clara to fall into his arms. I'm still not giving up hope on that and I know what my hunch is...

"Sex appeal appears to be related to enigmas in the man, withdrawnness, a challenge (at least in this novel). Will is none of these. He has not a shred of pretension. The gift of the cow is perfect."

Exactly true. When a catch is too "easy," it becomes unappealing. Will's very availability/accessibility is a mark against him, it seems. Ditto for our poor Clara with Mr. Aylmer.

"I found the theme of cousins well done -- ironically portrayed as Clara's assumption that because Will is her cousin she must be safe. In fact, middle class young people in the country married their cousins because they married whom they met (one sees this in the Austens)."

It was humorous that Clara felt safe from Will's lovemaking because he was her cousin. I enjoyed her waffling between "I am safe from him" to "perhaps I'm not so safe..." and back to "I am safe (with crossed fingers..." Quite funny.

"Mrs Askerton is another of these women with a sexual past which is not limited to one man."

I haven't gotten to the point in which her relation to Will Belton is revealed, but I can only suspect he knows something quite compromising. Whether he's being quiet for her reputation's sake, or because he really can't remember, I'm not sure.

"Interesting that Trollope does give her a tone which makes her teasing unpleasant."

She's a bit cheeky with Clara on the subject of suitors, I agree. She has a trace of venom/bitterness in her, which makes me all the more curious about exactly what she's hiding.

Trollope does adhere in Clara's story to the notion that virgins instinctively say no first when asked (this seems to be a male idea in 18th-19th century novels)."

Wasn't there something about it being all right to refuse twice, but not three times? It's a bit fuzzy but I thought I did see some reference to this.

"With Mrs Askerton he suggests an unchaste past makes a woman an uncomfortable creature in and of herself, never mind how she is ostracised by others."

It's Mrs. Askerton's husband whom I wonder about... The man disappears for several weeks out of the year and I just wonder what the man is really up to. He seems a bit shady, as well.

Lisa Guidarini

To Trollope-l

November 20, 1998

Re: The Belton Estate: Chs 1-6: Will and Clara

Before we go on to next week's chapters I thought I would say how charming I found the near-love scenes between Will and Clara. There was a full-throated quality about them which seemed to spring from the page with intense emotion. In the morning scene when he leaves just before he after he says goodbye, I thought Trollope hit the perfect note: delicate and tactful yet firmly and fully stated are the longings of Will and the confused responses of Clara.

I can see why Trollope would have connected this book in his mind to Rachel Ray. However, there is a great difference between the innocent and directness and simply gaiety of Rachel even after she goes to the ball, and the sophistication and bitterness of Clara's understanding of life; there is also a decided contrast between the suavity and careful if determined diplomacy of a Luke and the rough and ready sincerity of Will.

Ellen Moody

From: John Mize
Subject: The Belton Estate: Will Belton and Mr Collins
Sender: owner-trollope-l@smtp.teleport.com

To some extent The Belton Estate seems to be a rewriting of Pride and Prejudice. In both novels an estate is entailed to a distant relative who wants to do the right thing by marrying a daughter of the family currently holding the estate. In both cases a weak, greedy, silly parent wants the daughter to marry the distant relative, Mr. Belton being similar in many respects to Mrs. Bennet. Of course Mr. Belton is silly and passive, while Mrs. Bennet is silly and hysterical.

Of course Austen's daughter and cousin are not very much like Trollope's characters. Clara Belton is certainly no Elizabeth Bennet. Elizabeth almost seems to enjoy turning down the silly Mr. Collins' proposal, while Clara is so upset at turning down Will that she can't help but cry. I have the feeling that not only did Trollope consider Elizabeth's independent attitude unrealistic, but he viewed it as almost an affront to male dignity. Trollope certainly didn't care much for Austen's men, once claiming that George Knightley in Emma was a "stick."

Will Belton is also not a fool like Mr. Collins, although part of the difference in the situation is due to the authors' respective tones. Trollope would have been kinder (or at least, fairer) to a Mr. Collins, while Austen would have less respectful to a Will Belton. Trollope's attitude toward Belton reminds me of his aside in Rachel Ray in which he favorably compares the inarticulate intelligence of the country gentry to the wordy, pretentious intellectualism of the London elite. Belton is that sort of practical man of the earth with none of your high flown pretentious intellectual airs. His complaints about outsiders who buy shooting and think they are landowners reminds me of rural Georgians who complain about lawyers and real estate developers from Atlanta coming down to the country to hunt deer. "They come down here with their $2000 rifles and L.L. Bean hunting clothes, and they are just about as likely to kill someone's cow or another hunter as a deer."

To Trollope-l

November 21, 1998

Re: The Belton Estate and "The Parson's Daughter of Oxney Colne"

I too thought of Austen while reading _The Belton Estate_. Since I am so often absorbed by her as a topic this is not surprising, but I agree with John that a number of the plot elements recall Austen's novels -- I see in Clara a version of Fanny Price (situation, character type & so on).

But I was more struck by the close analogy between the opening situation of the aunt, captain, and Clara and the central paradigm of "The Parson's Daughter of Oxney Colne." Both also take place in the beautiful countryside of western England (so for that matter does Rachel Ray). Now I don't think the novel is "an expansion" of the short story; writers don't work that way. You can't "expand" a story like some rubber band or glue. But we can see in these parallels between the short stories and these shorter novels Trollope's concern with irrational sexual enthrallment and in the case of "The Parson's Daughter" and The Belton Estate what Halperin calls "mediated desire." The "Parson's Daughter" insists on the Captain's boredom once he realises how much Patience loves him.

Anyway upon reading Bart's posting I went off to check the dates and find that there is no necessary alignment of "The Parson's Daughter" and The Belton Estate. Trollope wrote "The Parson's Daughter of Oxney Colne" between the 13th and 19th of January 1861; it appeared on March 2nd, 1861 in the magazine, The London Review. It was first published in book form in Tales of All Countries: Second Series in February 1863. The closest novel to it is The Small House (an Austenian book too). The Belton Estate was written a number of stories and novels later: from the 30th of January to the 4th of September 1865; it was published as a book in 1865 by Chapman and Hall; the novel written just before is The Claverings; the novel written just after, Nina Balatka. Now I can see a "feel" which unites Belton Estate with Nina Balatka; something about the heroine. The story which precedes The Belton Estate is the very great (I think it one of Trollope's great short stories) "Malachi's Cove."

Ellen Moody
who must run off now but found this week's chapters very good. Tears came to my eyes the first time I read "The Parson's Daughter." "